How does the Sheet compares with the Competition ?

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How does the Sheet compares with the Competition ?

Post by admin »

One of the Registrered users has posted a nice thread on Usenet:

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.games ... 84cf6fb458

In that discussion, I mentionned that some of the Registered Users know about HeroForge and still have registered the Sheet - I know that only some of the registered users read/use the forums, but in case some of you are here :

How does the Sheet compares to HeroForge ?

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Last edited by admin on Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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kmt1001
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Post by kmt1001 »

I took a look at the heroforge CS, it's a very comprehensive sheet. Some areas are not as straightforward as the only sheet. Admin, one thing to note about this sheet, somehow they have included most of the supplements as built-ins...so there must be a way to get permission from WOC to do so. Either that or perhaps the OGL has been opened up a bit?
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Post by admin »

kmt1001 wrote:I took a look at the heroforge CS, it's a very comprehensive sheet. Some areas are not as straightforward as the only sheet. Richard, one thing to note about this sheet, somehow they have included most of the supplements as built-ins...so there must be a way to get permission from WOC to do so. Either that or perhaps the OGL has been opened up a bit?
I know that some of the registered users took more then "a look" at HeroForge - they switched to this Sheet!!

All the other Sheets uses the material from copyrighted sources... Either they all requested and received permission to use non-OGL material, or... they don't care about using material without permission (Ask them...!) [Editor's Note: The "god" names are non-ogl stuff - So if you see any of the Gods name mentioned, then the Sheet is using copyrighted material (with permission, or not...)

If your comparison criteria is "how many supplements are included", then this Sheet will be last as it sticks to the legal stuff... No I'am more interested in the functionality and the features - Like for instance, can you enter your Data directly on the Sheets you print or do you need secondary data entry worksheets? How about Epic characters - are they supported? How fast can you create a 34th level god-like NPC? Does the Stat Sheet compares to what's out there? how easy is it to customize a Race, or a Class ? How does the overall look of the Sheet holds up against others? (I know that I don't like the rainbow colors of many Sheets - but I'am sure some people love colorizing everything)

All those things are interesting... And perhaps the Sheet could benefit from the experiences of others!!

I'd love (one day) to have a COMPREHENSIVE comparison table between this Sheet and the others...

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Post by kmt1001 »

The largest and most significant difference that I notice is there doesn't really seem to be a system of checks and balances in that sheet. Basically you can just pick anything you want in the fields provided, kind of willy nilly. Allowing you to create for example a Fire Genasi Marinelord Dwarven Defender wearing Full plate mail, without any flags that you are creating an impossible character. For standard players, but most especially for those just beginning to find their way through D & D, your sheet gives a WHOLE lot more guidance. Which my DM prefers. I like your customization abilities though, I've played with a few DM's who have implemented thing from Mechwarrior to Middle Earth in a Regular D&D game, so yours is very nice for that.
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Post by pmlyon »

I used to use HeroForge exclusively until I discovered TOS (yay EN World forums!). I purchased TOS because of the customization it offers. Instead of the HeroForge style where every item is available, and you just need to pick it, TOS provides very easy to use customization fields for specifying pretty much whatever you want. I've spent hours customizing HeroForge to add very simple things, which I was then able to add to TOS in about 2.5 seconds.

To sum it up, TOS kicks ass! :-)
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Another Evaluation

Post by steeladept »

For a long time, I have been using sheets from Brian Wardman which is by all accounts an excellent sheet as well, but it is no where near as easy to customize. And while he covers a good number of resources, it never included resources or specialized calculations that I was looking for. I edited his sheets myself to customize them, but even a modest customization took an extensive amount of time and a great deal of effort; some without any results whatsoever due to the macros being employed. I still use his sheets as well for quick, simple sheets, but the customization and other features of this sheet make it the first choice for character creation.
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Post by wolf_spider333 »

as far as comparison I would choose this sheet because of the balance issue, the group I game with has a couple power gamers and a couple of newer gamers that don't really have a clue or the want or need to streach and twist the rules.. this sheet keeps both in balance with each othermakeing the games we play more fun and enjoyable...
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Post by orestees »

The sheet, after a learning curve (or I guess you could probably read some of the helpful directions included, but I never will, because I never learn), allows for updating and customization of characters at incredible speeds. Until I found the Sheet, it was always more efficient to do my character tracking in a format that changed from character to character, looselu based on whatever I thought at the time was best suited to reading each of their strengths and weaknesses. It worked, but this is easier and as it is standardized, I don't get headaches when playing multiple characters.
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Post by takei27 »

The sheet outmatches Hero Forge, as the custom classes/races are much easier to impliment. Hero Forge is base entirely on Living Greyhawk and as such is very hard to bring in a custom race that you read about in Dragon Magazine or the like. Also, Hero Forge does not have the creator of the program on speed dial, as we are all lucky enough to have Richard. Also, Hero Forge does not change, ever. The look of the sheet will never change, but with the only sheet, Richard gives us the authority, via unlocking certain aspects of the sheet, to change the look.

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Post by klakxor »

I attempted to use HeroForge once and found that this sheet was much easier to use. Maybe it is my familiarity with excel, but I much prefer this sheet over any other one that I tried.
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Post by xenos007 »

HeroForge is more of a nuisance than a help, thank goodness for this sheet!
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Post by HelloRaptor »

A new version of HeroForge has come out. It's been almost completely revamped and upgraded to include a ton of resources. In all honesty, it's pretty good. I admit, I do use the SpellForge (a seperate Excel file that comes with it), and will probably continue to until v8 of the sheet comes out. I play a lot of spellcasters with strange Feats (or Clerics with several Domains), and need the integration of feats/domains for my spell sheets.

Still, ToS outperforms it by a million miles when one considers that you still can't custmize any race or class in HF. You're stuck with what they have, and while it's a nice long list now, it's still all you can do.
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Post by admin »

I checked the new version of Hero Forge...
They certainly have used many books from WotC! One has to wonder how did they manage to get permission from WotC!!

I noticed a few items in the 3 minutes I checked it: It requires secondary worksheets to enter information, it does not seem to support Epic levels (for non epic, you have to manually select each of your levels one by one), it's full of colors (I call that to the Rainbow effects!) and the output ... well I don't like the output.

But don't mind me.. I am probably biased :)

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Post by HelloRaptor »

Thing is, nobody using HeroForge cares if it's WoTC compliant or not. ;) Seriously, it's a bunch of people sitting around making it up and then releasing it out onto the web. There's no charge, no central source (really), just a loose collaboration of people doing work on the same project. WoTC would have a harder time bringing legal action against HeroForge than places do in trying to crack down on end user use of .torrent files.

I agree that ToS is the superior sheet, because to me customization is key. But a lot of people don't care about that. They just want to use materials X, Y, and Z without the hassles of doing any actual work to fill in the bits you aren't allowed to due to your SRD compliance (though I again note, the experience needed to gain a new level is not covered under the SRD). They also don't care if WoTC disapproves of what they use at their gaming table.
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Post by HelloRaptor »

As a side note, I'm totally jealous. I keep seeing people mention Epic level games, but none of the 30+ people in my local gaming area have ever played Epic level anything since 3.0 came out. o.O
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Post by wolf_spider333 »

sofar with our Dm Jeff just about every game we have played of his we tend to level quickly as most of us tend not to run away from anything even when faced with certain death... could be our characters over developed egos or the fact that we just beleive that it only takes one lucky roll to turn the tables.... from what I have noticed about epic games is that it becomes increaseingly harder to maintain any sort of balance within the party and the game itself makeing the entire process many times harder for the Dm as in preparation and research time
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TOS vs. Heroforge.

Post by igreulich »

I am on the Heroforge Beta Team as well as a TOS user.

As far as what sheet is better?

It depends on what you are trying to do. Heroforge allows for 60 levels, from (at last count) a whole lot of different sources. I use TOS when I have departed from 'Normal' in such an extreme way that no amount of coding will bend Heroforge to my will.

As far as the legality of HF, it lives in a bigass gray area. First it is free, so there is no great loss of money to WotC. I mean really who bought PCGen, or Etools? Those programs, or their inadequacy are why HF and TOS exist. Second, HF is left vague. For any feat you select, on your character sheet you get information to find the rule, not the actual rule itself. In Spellforge you get the short description of the spell and a page number. (I am of the opinion that SF is the best spell list creator out there).

As far as what sheet is easier to use. That depends on which you used first, and for how long. I used HF fro several years before I found TOS. It took me about 2 days figure out how to competently enter a class, and create a character. When I found HF it took me all of 2 hours before I was up and running smoothly. But when I found HF i didn't have any notion of how anything should have worked. TOS doesn't work like HF, therefore I had to unlearn HF to use TOS.

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Post by Darkwolf »

In all honesty, you really can't compare the two.

It's not like they are really in direct competition. Heroforge is free. TOS/TOS+ cost money.
That said, the latest release of HF is actually stands up very well to TOS. TOS is better yes, but I don't know that it is by a huge margin. Not sure how it runs vs. TOS+, though I'm sure TOS+ blows HF away. (I certainly hope it does anyway ;)).

The 'competition' for TOS+ will be seen when CMP releases RPG Forge, or whatever they are calling it now. It will likely have the OGL content in it and I can easily see a community much like this one evolving where people share their datasets with each other.
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Post by admin »

Darkwolf wrote:TOS is better yes, but I don't know that it is by a huge margin. Not sure how it runs vs. TOS+, though I'm sure TOS+ blows HF away. (I certainly hope it does anyway ;)).
That is quite interesting to know - TOS+ is, by design, much more advanced then TOS (both Sheets are designed differently). I'd still be interested in knowing how TOS+ stacks versus HF - if only to see what other additions I can make to increase the versatility of the Sheet for you guys..!!!

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Post by admin »

Darkwolf wrote:In all honesty, you really can't compare the two.
I disagree...
You can compare 'features' and create a table of which sheet does what (like they do when they compare software)

Some of the comparison would be on features (like does it do Gestalt) and other would be more subjective (how easy is it to create a Sword that grands Darkvision, +2 bonus to Intimidate and adds 10 to your speed)

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Post by Darkwolf »

admin wrote:Some of the comparison would be on features (like does it do Gestalt) and other would be more subjective (how easy is it to create a Sword that grands Darkvision, +2 bonus to Intimidate and adds 10 to your speed)

R
Yes, it does gestalt. The sword bonuses could easily be factored into the sheet, you just have to enter them in different areas.

Now, how much does HF cost? Not to mention that SpellForge is one of the best spellsheet generators available.

It is much easier to make custom information with TOS, but it isn't impossible to do the same with HF. The average person has to wait for the Beta group to do all the work so HF is much slower to be up-to-date with new releases. HF also doesn't support substitution levels, though it does have a lot more feats than TOS. I haven't seen those bundled up as a download here. (If they are my apologies, I missed them.)

If you want characters with all the latest Classes/PrCs and what not, HF is not going to work, (They still don't have ToB classes and those are pretty critical IMO.) but if you only need core info and perhaps Completes/Races of xxxx, then HF is perfectly usable.

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So. compare the two?

HF: Functional, easy to use, adequate for most peoples use, extensive feat and spell lists. Custom classes/races possible but not easy to implement. It's FREE.

TOS: Very customizable, the learning curve is a bit steeper due to the ability to do so much with it. Custom races, classes, equipment are not hard at all after you get the hang of it. Custom feats are harder if you want then to factor themselves into the sheet. I haven't seem a place for custom spells, but that may be my over site. And of course it costs $$. (I'm not saying it's too much, just more than free.)
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Post by marine7312000 »

While I agree that HF is slightly more tempting to use due to the fact that it's free, personally I prefer the Sheet. I greatly dislike having to switch between 20 different tabs to create a simple character. Now please bear in mind that is just my personal opinion of the two stups. Now if there was only a way to update the feats list on TOS I'd be estatic. It's just a shame I'm not more familiar with Excel...
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Post by Darkwolf »

"20 tabs" is a bit of an exaggeration. Which creates bias in a comparison, something I tried to avoid. It's more like 8. If using SF then add 5 or 6 more, but again SF is much more complete than TOSs spell section.

And just to be perfectly clear, I prefer TOS as well. My point is that HF a viable alternative and for many price is THE determining factor. Making an honest comparison difficult.


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Post by marine7312000 »

While i may have exagerrated a bit and the price is the determining factor for many people, it is still my opinion. I apologize for the exagerration but it has been some time since I've had HF on my computer.
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