[Suggestions] Awards

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Duniagdra
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Re: Awards

Post by Duniagdra » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:37 pm

BC, you already have a post in the amendments thread about sending a PM to the challenged as well as the judges. So that rule already exists.

Negative VP may be a good consideration. Actually, Richard has, and I commented on, negative VP in regards to refusals and forfeits. Are you considering other instances? If so, please define them.
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[suggestion] Match Points sytem

Post by PowerRongeur » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:20 pm

Instead of experience points, we would use a match point system.

Winning the match = 6 MP
Losing the match = 1 MP
Fighting an opponent of the same level = 2 MP
Fighting an opponent one level higher = 3 MP
Fighting an opponent two levels higher = 4 MP
Fighting an opponenet one level lower = 1 MP
Fighting an opponent two level lower = 0 MP
Forfeiting a match = -2 MP
Note: the victory/loss MP are added to the level difference MP

MP needed for each level
level 2 = 20 MP
level 3 = 41 MP
level 4 = 63 MP
level 5 = 86 MP
level 6 = 110 MP
level 7 = 135 MP
level 8 = 161 MP
level 9 = 188 MP
level 10 = 216 MP
level 11 = 245 MP
level 12 = 275 MP
level 13 = 306 MP
level 14 = 338 MP
level 15 = 361 MP
level 16 = 395 MP
level 17 = 420 MP
level 18 = 451 MP
level 19 = 473 MP
level 20 = 500 MP

You cannot lose a level by losing MP.
At first, 3 wins get you a level. 6 losses gets you almost one. It gets slghtly harder every level.
xp cost for spellcaster would work like Pathfinder: the cost is converted into gold.

discuss
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Re: Awards

Post by admin » Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:41 pm

PowerRongeur wrote:A suberb plan with two tiny drawbacks...
1. I feel the number of VP needed to level should not be a flat x per level. I should be like the xp curve. Something like:
level 1 = 10 vp
level 2 = 22 vp
level 3 = 36 vp or somesuch.
There is a logical reason I had selected a linear progression - well 3 reasons actually.
a) it is EASY to know how many VPs you need to get to ANY level - no need to consult ANY chart...!
b) I did not want to discourage people from playing in the Arena because of the 'time' required to get to the next higher level... If we use a non-linear progression, then the time between levels would (technically) increase more and more as you level up... This did not seem 'fun' to me.
c) In D&D, the time between levels was about 1 level per 13 encounters - that is fixed, and this is what this proposal is about.

Your proposal to use a non-linear progression is based on a "feeling"?
That does not seem to be a logical reason (to me!).

Can you explain how you see a non-linear progression to be superior to a linear one?

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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:47 pm

I'm still liking the plan that Duni and I came up with, which Richard came to a similar conclusion. 6 VP = 1 level. 1 win = 2 VP. 1 loss = 1 VP (so three wins or six losses to a level).
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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by admin » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:23 pm

shai-hulud wrote:I'm still liking the plan that Duni and I came up with, which Richard came to a similar conclusion. 6 VP = 1 level. 1 win = 2 VP. 1 loss = 1 VP (so three wins or six losses to a level).
So you don't think that winning against a higher level should be rewarded extra?
(or that winning against a lower ranked Gladiator deserves less?)

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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:27 pm

Towards a level? No. In gp? Yes.
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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by admin » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:31 pm

shai-hulud wrote:Towards a level? No. In gp? Yes.
This seems to ignore fighting against a higher Challenge Rating... !?
Can you explain why you don't think that fighting a higher CR should grant you more "xp-like" reward?
Unless I am mistaken, it goes against D&D3.5 and the XP table in the DMG!!

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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:45 pm

Because single combat is not like facing higher challenge ratings. A party faces challenges. An individual does not. Therefore, the abstraction (much like Duni was suggesting with the boxing analogy), is not based on the difficulty of the challenge, but instead simply the number of challenges faced. This indicates training time in between the challenges (which is undocumented, for sure, but would make sense). If we want to follow the DMG, then why change the system at all? We can go straight from what the DMG says, both for XP and average GP per encounter.

Pretty much any time you have a single character going it alone, you are going against the advice in the DMG. D&D is a PARTY game, not an individual one.
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Re: Awards

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:45 pm

Duniagdra wrote:
PowerRongeur wrote:
admin wrote: Here is another similar scenario, based on the same idea (using the number of Win/losses to level up):
A level represent 10 victory points.
So level 1 = 10 VP
level 2= 20 VP
level 3 = 30 VP...etc

Code: Select all

Combat Result               VP earned      Gold Earned
=============               ========       ==========
Won versus same level       +1.0 VP        200gp
Won versus lower level      +0.5 VP        100gp
Won versus higher level     +1.5 VP        200gp + 100gp x Level Difference
Loss versus same level      +1.0 VP        100gp
Loss versus lower level     +0.5 VP         50gp
Loss versus higher level    +1.0 VP        100gp
Refusing a Challenge        -1.0 VP          0gp
Not replying within X days  -2.0 VP          0gp  (Absences must be posted!)
As I said, these a just number which can be changed - so try to make abstraction of the numbers themselves, and judge the idea itself. This is 'simple' and yes, I know it does NOT take into account the Difference in level so much.

Which makes for another idea: The GOLD award could be used to give HIGHER credit for a WON versus a higher level opponent... I.E. 200 GP + 200GP per level difference (or some such!) (Again, don't hassle me about the exact number - focus, FOCUS on the idea... :P )

Richard
A suberb plan with two tiny drawbacks...
1. I feel the number of VP needed to level should not be a flat x per level. I should be like the xp curve. Something like:
level 1 = 10 vp
level 2 = 22 vp
level 3 = 36 vp or somesuch.

2. It doesn't account for the difference in level, as you mentionned. Fortunately, this is easy to fix:
+x VP per level difference

now all we need to do is fiddle with the amounts.
First thing: "(Again, don't hassle me about the exact number - focus, FOCUS on the idea... :P )" If I can't hassle you, what's the point and where's the fun?
Second: BusyCowboy has the final say on all of this.
Third: I think both can be combined following the actual XP system as an example:
Level 1: 10 VP
Level 2: 21 VP
Level 3: 32 VP
Level 4: 43 VP

Also, I like the chart Richard cam up with, but the win:loss ratio need to be different. Maybe say:

Code: Select all

Win Lvl:Lvl = +2 Loss Lvl:Lvl = +1
Win Lvl:+1  = +3 Loss Lvl:+1  = +1.5
Win Lvl:-1  = +1 Loss Lvl:-1  = +.5
Refusing a challenge should only be penalized if the refused is of a equal or higher level than the challenger. Someone of lower level should be able to decline if his challenger is higher level than him.
I'm actually liking this very much. Though maybe keeping the progression through level linear may have greater merit. But then, I can't help looking back at 3 wins 6 losses as just being so damn easy, tracking wise. I will say unquestioningly that I like the GP award table Richard has, although I'm not sure about giving gold to the loser. If any gold goes to the loser, maybe it would be a quarter had the loser won.
PowerRongeur wrote:Instead of experience points, we would use a match point system.

Winning the match = 6 MP
Losing the match = 1 MP
Fighting an opponent of the same level = 2 MP
Fighting an opponent one level higher = 3 MP
Fighting an opponent two levels higher = 4 MP
Fighting an opponent one level lower = 1 MP
Fighting an opponent two level lower = 0 MP
Forfeiting a match = -2 MP
Note: the victory/loss MP are added to the level difference MP

MP needed for each level
level 2 = 20 MP
level 3 = 41 MP
level 4 = 63 MP
level 5 = 86 MP
level 6 = 110 MP
level 7 = 135 MP
level 8 = 161 MP
level 9 = 188 MP
level 10 = 216 MP
level 11 = 245 MP
level 12 = 275 MP
level 13 = 306 MP
level 14 = 338 MP
level 15 = 361 MP
level 16 = 395 MP
level 17 = 420 MP
level 18 = 451 MP
level 19 = 473 MP
level 20 = 500 MP

You cannot lose a level by losing MP.
At first, 3 wins get you a level. 6 losses gets you almost one. It gets slghtly harder every level.
xp cost for spellcaster would work like Pathfinder: the cost is converted into gold.

discuss
I've also looked at this progression chart, and to reach 20th level with ALL wins could be done in 62.5 matches. That just over a year, and is very reachable.
Now I've had a closer look at this chart below, and though it's progression is appealing, it's not very even.
A loss at same level is 3 points. A win at same level is 8 points. I don't mind that big gap between wins and losses, but we want to keep leveling attainable. If we make it 18 per level, 6 losses can gain a level, that also means 2 wins + 1 loss is a level, 1 win + 4 losses is a level.

Code: Select all

Level    Target    Difference
  2	 =	20	 MP	
  3	 =	41	 MP    21
  4	 =	63	 MP	 22
  5	 =	86	 MP	 23
  6	 =	110	MP	 24
  7	 =	135	MP	 25
  8	 =	161	MP	 26
  9	 =	188	MP	 27
  10	=	216	MP	 28
  11	=	245	MP	 29
  12	=	275	MP	 30
  13	=	306	MP	 31
  14	=	338	MP	 32
  15	=	361	MP	 23
  16	=	395	MP	 34
  17	=	420	MP	 25
  18	=	451	MP	 31
  19	=	473	MP	 22
  20	=	500	MP	 27
Now looking at the points earned:
Winning the match = 6 MP Good
Losing the match = 1 MP Good
Fighting an opponent of the same level = 2 MP Good
Fighting an opponent one level higher = 3 MP Good
Fighting an opponent two levels higher = 4 MP Good
Fighting an opponent one level lower = 1 MP Good
Fighting an opponent two level lower = 0 MP Problem
Forfeiting a match = -2 MP This would be pertaining to the 5 day rule of initiating a challenge and the 2 day rule once the challenge is accepted and the arena has been open.
Refusing a Challenge -1.0 VP This should only apply as long as the challenged is not of lower level to the challenger, as it would be the challenged who would be the only one to refuse. Although I don't see the sense in allowing a champion of any level to challenge a champion of a level lower than his.

Let's work this out, as I feel we are getting close to something that will work.

Again, I still can't help but like the absolute simplicity of the flat 3 win/6 loss to level. It's clean and consistent. Also, BC has a progression chart of gold earned per level for winning. This chart he has can easily be converted into number of wins to losses averaged out per level. This way, the better your champion gets, the more wins he should gain in his career.

Example:
Someone has a 5th level fighter. That would be either 15 wins, or 30 losses, or something in between. Lets say he has 8 wins and 14 losses. divide that by his level, 1.6 wins, 2.8 losses. hm... Well, maybe some more thought on this part, I though I had something, but it seemed to have gotten a bit lost. LOL
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Re: Awards

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:59 pm

Duniagdra wrote:Again, I still can't help but like the absolute simplicity of the flat 3 win/6 loss to level. It's clean and consistent. Also, BC has a progression chart of gold earned per level for winning. This chart he has can easily be converted into number of wins to losses averaged out per level. This way, the better your champion gets, the more wins he should gain in his career.
If I'm understanding what you are suggesting, you are saying that BCs chart actually made it more difficult to gain levels? That is not so. BCs chart actually made it easier. The higher your level, the faster you would gain XP. Here is an example:

A 2nd level character has 1,000 XP. He faces another 2nd level character of the same XP. The winner would earn 150 XP while the loser would earn 15 XP. Now, if a 19th level character (minimum 171,000 XP) faces another gladiator of equal level, the winner receives 15% = 25,650 (more than needed to level), and the loser would have received 10% of that = 2,565 XP, or about 10% of what is needed to level. The progression actually favored higher-level characters.
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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by BusyCowboy » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:00 pm

1) I have to agree with the difference of the lower level being able to decline a higher level since they could be much weaker than the higher level and end up just being fodder for the uppers to tag on.

2) Why not make something similar to the xp system that is current and convert it over to VP/MP but obviously with lower numbers? That way we would have something that is not only decently balanced, but easy to understand?

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Re: Awards

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:07 pm

shai-hulud wrote:
Duniagdra wrote:Again, I still can't help but like the absolute simplicity of the flat 3 win/6 loss to level. It's clean and consistent. Also, BC has a progression chart of gold earned per level for winning. This chart he has can easily be converted into number of wins to losses averaged out per level. This way, the better your champion gets, the more wins he should gain in his career.
If I'm understanding what you are suggesting, you are saying that BCs chart actually made it more difficult to gain levels? That is not so. BCs chart actually made it easier. The higher your level, the faster you would gain XP. Here is an example:

A 2nd level character has 1,000 XP. He faces another 2nd level character of the same XP. The winner would earn 150 XP while the loser would earn 15 XP. Now, if a 19th level character (minimum 171,000 XP) faces another gladiator of equal level, the winner receives 15% = 25,650 (more than needed to level), and the loser would have received 10% of that = 2,565 XP, or about 10% of what is needed to level. The progression actually favored higher-level characters.
is it only 25K needed for 20th? that doesn't seem like much
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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:09 pm

2nd level needs 1,000 XP. 3rd level needs 2,000 XP. You need level x 1000 XP to get to the next level (which at 19th level would be 19,000 XP to get to 20th level).
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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:13 pm

shai-hulud wrote:2nd level needs 1,000 XP. 3rd level needs 2,000 XP. You need level x 1000 XP to get to the next level (which at 19th level would be 19,000 XP to get to 20th level).
crap! that's right. Then let's just stay with that. This would mean that Horris now has 200 XP, 150 for his win, and 50 for the forfeit. 200 gold for his win, and 5 gold for the forfeit. And it wasn't me who said anything about his chart being an issue, someone else first said that this chart would take too long to level up through.
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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:24 pm

So you like one win gaining more than a level at higher levels? But no, by that chart, Horris would get 0 XP from his first win, 50 XP from the forfeit. Now, when he fights others, they stand to earn 5 XP (since Horris is the only one with XP) and everyone else still gets 0 XP from all fights until they face Horris or win by forfeit. (0 times 15% = 0)
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Re: [Suggestions] Awards

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:33 pm

shai-hulud wrote:So you like one win gaining more than a level at higher levels? But no, by that chart, Horris would get 0 XP from his first win, 50 XP from the forfeit. Now, when he fights others, they stand to earn 5 XP (since Horris is the only one with XP) and everyone else still gets 0 XP from all fights until they face Horris or win by forfeit. (0 times 15% = 0)
no, it's 150 xp awarded per fight to the winner at 1st level.

ah, just looked back and no, he does not have any xp for 1st level. he messed up.
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