Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

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shai-hulud
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Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by shai-hulud » Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:15 pm

This list is the current state of the conversations about the allowable sources for the Arena. I will continue to update this list as more points are added to the conversation.
  1. Keep the Arena restricted to just SRD.
    • Pros: This promotes balance.
    • Cons: This becomes uninteresting very quickly.
  2. Provide a limited selection of sources in addition to the SRD (allow the Complete books and Tome of Battle again)
    • Pros: The variety adds to the capabilities of the gladiators, making some interesting choices available.
    • Cons: Many are not familiar with the rules of Tome of Battle, making it difficult for many to compete against gladiators using martial maneuvers. Additionally, at higher levels, there are many issues with maneuvers being too powerful, surpassing even spellcasting. (MANY references can be provided should others desire. Just google it)
  3. Implement a system where gladiators can "win" additional sources they may use.
    • Pros: This provides incentive to play more in the Arena in hopes of winning more variety for gladiators.
    • Cons: This method favors only the most active gladiators, helping them to become more and more powerful in comparison to their opposition.
  4. Rank gladiators based on the number and types of different sources used. These gladiator ranks can then be used to determine how powerful a gladiator is due to the additional number of sources used.
    • Pros: This option is likely the most interesting while remaining relatively fair. Not only do gladiators have less restrictive options for sources, but they also have a way of balancing those choices (and inevitably more powerful combinations) so that gladiators can remain at roughly even playing fields, relying upon strategy instead of book knowledge to win.
    • Cons: This method is extremely difficult to adjudicate. How does one determine to what effect various sources can be used? What sort of effect should this have on the gladiators themselves? The largest problem with this idea is that these questions need answers, and they are not easy answers to come up with.
  5. Separate arenas: Have one arena specifically for gladiators that are SRD-only. Have a separate arena for gladiators that use other sources. Allow gladiators from the SRD-only arena to compete in the "all sources" arena, but not the other way around.
    • Pros: This allows players who don't want to worry about multiple source books or don't have the knowledge of them to create characters that will be able to compete, while the players who do have knowledge/time to devote to many additional source books can have their fun, as well.
    • Cons: Having two separate arenas increases the workload for moderators. Also, this limits the combatants in the SRD-only arena.
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Re: Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by BusyCowboy » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:37 pm

1. That's why we want 'quirks' and 'interesting' parts to it.

2. That is why we keep those for people who have at least played this, so that way they have not only time to understand them, but have a chance to research these things

3. The most active gladiators will be fighting in their own 'area' with all things considered. We are not going to put an LA +1 against a standard. We could optimize this, but at this time, I believe focusing on the basics would be more of an important thing.

4. Thus why there are benefits to being such a 'rank', which I believe are listed.

5. But at the same time, dis-allows someone of again (points to part 3), of a LA to challenge someone that does not have an LA...Can you imagine an LA 7 going against a standard 7th level? Not pretty.

I hope this helps

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Re: Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by shai-hulud » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:49 pm

Huh? The idea of those five points is that each is a possible method of dealing with additional books. I'm not sure how your numbered points relate to the numbers that I have listed. I'll try to go through point by point and see if I understand what you are saying...
BusyCowboy wrote:1. That's why we want 'quirks' and 'interesting' parts to it.
I have no clue what you mean by this. What quirks and interesting parts to what? Where? Huh? Lol.
BusyCowboy wrote:2. That is why we keep those for people who have at least played this, so that way they have not only time to understand them, but have a chance to research these things
Are you saying that there is a benefit to adding in the Complete Series and Tome of Battle? Is that a con? I don't understand how that relates to the discussion.
BusyCowboy wrote:3. The most active gladiators will be fighting in their own 'area' with all things considered. We are not going to put an LA +1 against a standard. We could optimize this, but at this time, I believe focusing on the basics would be more of an important thing.
Again, I have no clue how this relates to the discussion at all...
BusyCowboy wrote:4. Thus why there are benefits to being such a 'rank', which I believe are listed.
Same as the above two. Huh? What are you talking about benefits of 'rank'? Currently, there is no system for determining if additional sources are used how powerful a character is compared to another. Your rank system has nothing to do with additional books at all, in fact. I don't see how it pertains to the topic.
BusyCowboy wrote:5. But at the same time, dis-allows someone of again (points to part 3), of a LA to challenge someone that does not have an LA...Can you imagine an LA 7 going against a standard 7th level? Not pretty.
This topic is not about level adjustment races. In fact, aside from you, I haven't seen anyone who was even interested in playing a level-adjusted race. And an LA +7 character is not supposed to go against a standard 7th level. That is what ECL is for determining. For instance, a vampire (5 HD, +8 level adjustment) is a 13th level character (5+8=13). That vampire with 5 HD is going up against a 13th level character, not a 5th level one or an 8th level one. Or consider the pixie (LA +4). At 5th level, it would have 1 HD pixie, +4 level adjustment, going up against characters like Sorcerer 5 with See Invisibility running from the start. (That's a creature with 6+Con hp versus a sorcerer with 5 levels...)
BusyCowboy wrote:I hope this helps
Not at the moment, unfortunately. As soon as you explain what you mean, then definitely :D
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Re: Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:53 am

Regarding Point 1:
This was my actual literal impression, that we were limiting the Arena to only the SRD.

I'm in favor of #2 and #4 could maybe be done in classes, like in boxing. This would have no impact on anything other than placing gladiators in categories that allow them more even matches, making the matches more challenging and entertaining. Regarding #4, we would need to establish a rating system for material used so the cumulative score would determine the "weight class" of that gladiator. While the SRD allows MMI to be a legal source, I feel none of the others should be permitted unless they are entered as NPCs, for champion vs creature matches.
Also, as more players join up, and more casters become available, these could be separated into categories as well.

I think we could allow other sources, based on a school's success too. Maybe opening up the Races Books, and some others?

In regards to retirement, I think 20th should be the last level reached. You don't hit epic until 21st, so 20th levels should be allowed matches. Once they attain 21st, they retire. We do not need to enter into Epic match fights. But this could be something for later thought.

NOTE: I copied this from the other thread. I posted it there before seeing this thread.
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Re: Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by BusyCowboy » Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:38 pm

In regards to 20th level characters: So kind of like a retirement match?

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Re: Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Oct 07, 2009 1:58 pm

BusyCowboy wrote:In regards to 20th level characters: So kind of like a retirement match?
Sure, why not?
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Re: Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by BusyCowboy » Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:38 pm

I do like that idea. Kind of like an initiation to be ALLOWED to retire. LOL

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Re: Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:13 pm

My opinion is that gladiators are already rewarded for winning. Richard has mentioned it, that this is gonna become like an MMO where the people who are around all day long updating the arena matches are gonna be the only ones getting benefits. Those who play a lot will have massively powerful gladiators, and everyone else will be left in the dust. I think it is important to decide now: is that what we are looking for? Do we want people to have to be around all the time in order to have an effective gladiator? Because that is what the system of rewarding people with additional source books might eventually lead to.

I, too, am in favor of option #4. If some way of judging the power-level of a gladiator was possible, putting him into a "weight class", I would be interested in seeing how the game would play out. If that doesn't work, I'm in favor of #'s 5 and 1.
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Re: Rule Modification: Sources Allowed

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:27 pm

Unfortunately, the nature of the beast is that, what it can get, it will take. We can't control how fast an individual is able to level. Keep in mind, that even though one player gets far, he can only go as far as challenges will allow him. If you end up with someone having a high level champion, then he can only fight those nearest in level to him. If those are only a few, then the challenges will grow dull and you'll find that they are left waiting for others to catch up. I'm not sure the concern here though.
I mean, if you have people that are here on a regular basis, they should be allowed to progress as fast as they can. If I'm here, and I want to make a challenge, after a time, I'm going to learn who's the most reliable PbP player and challenge them as often as I can so I CAN progress quickly.
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