Adding source books beyond SRD

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Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by Duniagdra » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:07 am

Perhaps there could be something to adding books based on school level. School level would be the total levels of all gladiators. The level requirement could be every third, but for the school, for each gladiator, you multiply the level requirement by them.

Example:
To obtain access to the Complete Series or Races Series could be LR3
You have one gladiator that reaches 3rd. Your school chooses access to the Complete Series.
LR 6 gives access to other books, ToB, MMII, HoH, etc...
Your gladiator reaches 5th (current level for gaining additional gladiators to a school), so your school releases a new gladiator from training into the arena. This new gladiator gains access to the completes because the school has access to the completes, so the new gladiator is a scout.
Your school now has a total level of six, one 5th and one 1st. But your school has 2 gladiators, making the multiplier 2. It now requires 12 levels to gain access to the next set of books, which remains fixed.


This is only a start. I'm open to suggestions. The above is a rough idea, but I believe this needs to be figured out.
I don't see anything requiring a school to have to release new gladiators, but there could be benefits in doing so.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by PowerRongeur » Wed Nov 11, 2009 11:29 am

I like the idea. I like less the doubling of requirement when you have a new gladiator. I don't see why we would implement that part. With 3 wins to a level, it doesn't really matter whether you have one gladiator who is level 15 or one gladiator level 10 and another who's 5. You have theorically won the same amount of matches. I say we don't double the required amount for having more than one gladiator.

I think that 3 levels is too few. I'd put it at 4 or 5. Especially if we lump books into one step like "access to all complete xx book". Putting at 5 level is good in that you can create a new gladiator with the books you've just unlocked.

In another optic, we could have access to a book as a trait or a feat. I like traits because you are limited to 2 so you limit the mix-and-match possibilities of choosing a feat in every book to get a real jump in power. Both trait and feat also cost something to the gladiator to have access to some powers. We'd have to check if the cost is too steep but I think the idea could be explored.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Nov 11, 2009 12:24 pm

I'm actually considering dropping the levels for getting a new gladiator to 4, so making the books open ever four would be just as good.

I'm thinking the following:

4th Complete Series
8th Races Series
12th MM Series, ToB, HoH, HoB
16th, all others?

How far does the list need to be? I think grouping them would be easiest.

I'd like suggestions on this.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:09 pm

What you have looks good to me. Don't forget about the Spell Compendium (or were you leaving that one for level 16 on purpose?)
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by admin » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:16 pm

MIC? (Magic Items Compendium)

Remember that this assumes all gladiator have access to all these books.

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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by shai-hulud » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:27 pm

Richard, there has been talk for a while now that once we have enough gladiators, ones who are SRD only would fight other SRD only gladiators. Ones who use multiple sources would fight multiple source gladiators only. Seems it shouldn't matter if you have the books or not. If you don't have the books, you fight others without the books.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by PowerRongeur » Wed Nov 11, 2009 1:50 pm

shai-hulud wrote:Richard, there has been talk for a while now that once we have enough gladiators, ones who are SRD only would fight other SRD only gladiators. Ones who use multiple sources would fight multiple source gladiators only. Seems it shouldn't matter if you have the books or not. If you don't have the books, you fight others without the books.
So in effect, we'll have 3 arenas in the long run: 3.5 SRD, 3.5 all books, pathfinder SRD
And eventually a fourth: pathfinder all books
And maybe a fifth: PvE

Mein goth, we'll need more moderators!


Back to the book discussion: Magic of the incarnum, Tome of Magic, sandstorm, stormwrack, heroes of battle, heroes of horror, tome of vile darkness and book of exalted deeds will need their level requirements.

Also, shall we include other sources than WotC? Can I gain use of the spells in the Paizo 3.5 products?
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:02 pm

There will strictly be only two Arenas. One will be from D&D 3.5. The other will be from Pathfinder, once that gets started. What will happen, in regards to what shai pointed out, will be gladiators segregated into weight classes. Class categories will end up being Light Weight, Middle Weight, and Heavy Weight. We could say the a Pure SRD is Light Weight. A gladiator made of SRD + 1 or 2 other sources is Middle Weight. A gladiator made of anything more is Heavy Weight.

As far as Pathfinder, I'm not seeing any book limitations being installed. What's available to purchase that is PFRPG would be available to all Pathfinder Schools. At this time, I'd like to stay focused on 3.5 only. Pathfinder can wait for when Pathfinder opens. It will be discussed before being opened.

What this topic is now geared to is a Level Requirement Progression System. The LRPS needs to be uniform to the New Gladiator Acquisition System. I will likely be reducing to levels needed to gain a new gladiator to 4. This means, your first gladiator, your Principle Gladiator, has the ability to allow your school to throw into the arena up to 5 new gladiators before retiring at 21st level. Going Epic is Retirement. You don't level a gladiator at 21st, you just put him to rest. As the new gladiators attain levels, they too are able to allow their school to push out new gladiators. All these gladiators add their levels to the School's Level Pool.

What this means is a school can have:
2 gladiators at 4th.
4 gladiators at 8th/4th.
8 gladiators at 12th/8th/4th/4th.
16 gladiators at 16th/12th/8th/8th/4th/4th/4th/4th.
32 gladiators at 20th/16th/12th/12th/8th/8th/8th/8th/4th/4th/4th/4th/4th/4th/4th/4th.

If my math is right, that's a very successful school. This can easily run away with itself, even if left to every 5th level interval.

I would like to start seeing postings recommending how to determine source book accessibility. In regards to those who do not have the material in question, it can always be provided in some manner through PM or Email.

As of now, we seem to have 4th level set at the Complete Series. Maybe we could amend it to to the Complete Series, or the Races Series. In other words, at forth level, you choose to build a gladiator from the Complete Warrior. That's it. Now your School has full access to the SRD + Complete Warrior. You don't gain access to the entire series through the development of this new Gladiator or the existing Gladiator. If later, you add two new gladiators from two other sources that become available at that time, your school has access to ALL sources up to that level. However, Once these two new gladiators are active, those sources now become closed and only the sources that all the gladiators were made from are accessible to all gladiators of that school.

So, if the First is from the SRD (a Monk), not much choice there - it has to be SRD, then he/she only has access to the SRD up to 4th. At 4th, your school has the ability to push out a new gladiator from the Complete or Race Series. You choose to put out a Scout from the Complete Adventurer. All those other sources are closed off and your "Monk" AND your scout have access to both the SRD and the Complete Adventurer. This goes for all other future gladiators put out to battle in the arena.

Now, if we look at the above progression in the number of gladiators per school and the School Level Pool (SLP), we see that the SLP is:
5
14
32
68
136

These are the numbers that we should be looking at when considering when to open sources up to schools. Yes, we would need to include the Spell Compendium and the MIC also. I didn't name them because there was nothing absolute tot he list I gave before. It did not mean that I was leaving them for higher level access.

Please build on this.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:26 pm

considering the above numbers, I'll instead be maintaining the 5th level increment instead for both new gladiators and source access.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:00 pm

So the actual numbers would be:

2 gladiators at 5th.
4 gladiators at 10th/5th.
8 gladiators at 15th/10th/5th/5th.
16 gladiators at 20th/15th/10th/10th/5th/5th/5th/5th.

and:

6
17
39
83

Much better numbers. :wink:

Also, you are not forced to take new gladiators, but once you pass this point of adding a new gladiator, you are unable to do so until the next interval, and only for the number allowed at the interval based on the levels your schools has.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by admin » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:31 pm

A SIMPLE rule that can be said in a single phrase, which does not require a 'table' array... :
You can create ONE additional Gladiator for EACH FOUR levels your highest level Gladiator is.
Anyways, if the 1 per 4 level is used, I'll be using the phrase above for my school.

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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by Duniagdra » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:45 pm

admin wrote:A SIMPLE rule that can be said in a single phrase, which does not require a 'table' array... :
You can create ONE additional Gladiator for EACH FOUR levels your highest level Gladiator is.
Anyways, if the 1 per 4 level is used, I'll be using the phrase above for my school.

Richard
It's going to be in 5 level increments.
If you have a 10th level and a 5th level gladiator, you then can have two new 1st level gladiators. It's not complicated, it's actually quite simple.

This thread is for discussing books though, not the number of gladiators. I only gave those numbers above as an example of what to consider for how to allow access to new sources as levels allow.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by PowerRongeur » Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:39 am

here's a proposal.

All books are individually unlocked. There is no specific level requirement for a specific book.

Now how to unlock the books:
A gladiator unlocks 1 book for his school upon attaining level 5
A gladiator unlocks 2 books for his school upon attaining level 10
A gladiator unlocks 3 books for his school upon attaining level 15
A gladiator unlocks 4 books for his school upon attaining level 20

Pros: - It's simple
- It provides incentive to playing higher level gladiators

Cons: - Some books are better and/or have more content than other. This system doesn't take it into account
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by Duniagdra » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:03 am

PowerRongeur wrote:here's a proposal.

All books are individually unlocked. There is no specific level requirement for a specific book.

Now how to unlock the books:
A gladiator unlocks 1 book for his school upon attaining level 5
A gladiator unlocks 2 books for his school upon attaining level 10
A gladiator unlocks 3 books for his school upon attaining level 15
A gladiator unlocks 4 books for his school upon attaining level 20

Pros: - It's simple
- It provides incentive to playing higher level gladiators

Cons: - Some books are better and/or have more content than other. This system doesn't take it into account
So you're proposing that at each 5 level increment, a gladiator's school has full access to all source books, but may only choose one, whereupon all gladiators of that school gain access to the newly "opened" source? What is determining the level, the gladiator, or the school? If it's the gladiator, then how does the school gain access to the books. If it's the school, then the school level is based on the total gladiator levels.

If a book is being unlocked by a gladiator leveling, then it's the gladiator gaining access to the book. If his levels are the reason the books open up to the school, then that is said for each gladiator in the school. So again we're looking at the school's total gladiator levels. I'm fine with this progression.
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by PowerRongeur » Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:33 am

Duniagdra wrote:
PowerRongeur wrote:here's a proposal.

All books are individually unlocked. There is no specific level requirement for a specific book.

Now how to unlock the books:
A gladiator unlocks 1 book for his school upon attaining level 5
A gladiator unlocks 2 books for his school upon attaining level 10
A gladiator unlocks 3 books for his school upon attaining level 15
A gladiator unlocks 4 books for his school upon attaining level 20

Pros: - It's simple
- It provides incentive to playing higher level gladiators

Cons: - Some books are better and/or have more content than other. This system doesn't take it into account
So you're proposing that at each 5 level increment, a gladiator's school has full access to all source books, but may only choose one, whereupon all gladiators of that school gain access to the newly "opened" source? What is determining the level, the gladiator, or the school? If it's the gladiator, then how does the school gain access to the books. If it's the school, then the school level is based on the total gladiator levels.

If a book is being unlocked by a gladiator leveling, then it's the gladiator gaining access to the book. If his levels are the reason the books open up to the school, then that is said for each gladiator in the school. So again we're looking at the school's total gladiator levels. I'm fine with this progression.
First, let me clarify something I see as confusing. Let's take a 20th level gladiator for example. That gladiator has "opened" 1+2+3+4= 10 books.

I was thinking a gladiator leveling "open" a book for all his schoolmate. In a big award ceremony, the Arena owner gives a copy of a book to the gladiator who promptly puts it in the school's library for all of his schoolmate to peruse at their leisure. The school's total level doesn't come into it. It also ties books to new gladiators as was intended.

However, I'm fine with total school level "opening" books for that school. In that case, I think we should put it a flat 1 book per 5 levels of the school and not 1+2+3+4+... .
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Re: Adding source books beyond SRD

Post by Duniagdra » Thu Nov 12, 2009 9:46 am

PowerRongeur wrote:First, let me clarify something I see as confusing. Let's take a 20th level gladiator for example. That gladiator has "opened" 1+2+3+4= 10 books.
Ah, yeah, I missed that.
PowerRongeur wrote:I was thinking a gladiator leveling "open" a book for all his schoolmate. In a big award ceremony, the Arena owner gives a copy of a book to the gladiator who promptly puts it in the school's library for all of his schoolmate to peruse at their leisure. The school's total level doesn't come into it. It also ties books to new gladiators as was intended.
Whether it be a gladiator level or the school total levels, it still comes out the same way, as each gladiator leveling with open new books to the school. This is, either way, the same as I have been posting all along, progression-wise.
PowerRongeur wrote:However, I'm fine with total school level "opening" books for that school. In that case, I think we should put it a flat 1 book per 5 levels of the school and not 1+2+3+4+... .
I think one book per five levels is enough. What I'll do at this point is conclude this discussion as resolved and open a poll. The options will be:
Allow access to new sources at a rate of 1 per 5 level of a schools total levels.
Allow access to 1 at 5th, 2 at 10th, 3 at 15th, 4 at 20th, based on the highest level gladiator of a school.

Sound good?

What option one allows is the opening of 16 book, based on the number of 83 total school levels by the time the highest level gladiator reaches 20th. The 16 books can rapidly increase as other gladiators retire and continue to level.
What option two allows is the opening of 10 books by the 20th level of the highest level gladiator. However, something different can happen here as lower level gladiators reach higher levels. Assume you have a 20th level who retires at 21st. assume that you've taken on a new gladiator at 5th, 10th and 15th. Now the 15th reaches 20th and opens another 4. Then your 10th level reaches 15th, but does not earn books as he's not the highest level, but he does reach 20th, tied with your other 20th, and thus gains 4 books. That's only 8 books added in 15 levels, but assume that the highest level gladiator retires soon after attaining 20th. So the original retires, leaving the school with 10 books to work from. The 15th reaches 20th and soon retires, opening 4 books. The 10th reaches 15th, gaining 3 books, then 20th for another 4. in 15 levels this opens 11 books.

To me, option one has the ability to open more books to a school to option one when compared side by side. Am I wrong? In any case, no matter how this is done, That's a LOT of books to have access to by the 20th level of the oldest gladiator. :D
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