OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications (A)

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by cave_lion » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:48 am

Duniagdra wrote:Once a sorcerer, if there are any in either party, reaches 10th level, he/she can learn permanency, illuminating spells can be cast and made permanent.
This is true--but actually both Lantern Archons have the spell like ability continual flame. I am sure either would be happy to provide anyone with as much light as they want...

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Re: Bard Performance Feature

Post by cave_lion » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:42 pm

Just noticed that all the Bard Performance effects are also based on rounds as 6 seconds and also no longer does the Inspire Courage last for 5 rounds after started. This would mean a high level bard could play with effect for a couple of minutes per day and a first level bard at 18 Charisma has just over 1 minute (8 combat rounds). That is just stupid in my opinion. Let's try doing the same thing we did with the bloodline powers. Change any reference to "rounds" to "minutes" with the stipulation that once started any effect will take up a mandatory 1 minute of time (or 10 combat rounds). So that 1st level Bard with 18 Charisma now has up to 8 minutes of performance time (64 possible combat rounds) with a maximum per day usage of 8 times at 1 minute each (or any combination in 1 minute increments.) That should make a Bard actually useful in a campaign...

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by Arpat » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:41 am

i have a question about how to proceed...
as far as i understood KenKen only can lock up the bad evilish thingies after scanning...
How does KenKen scan the bad guy before we move in on the bad guy? obviously they are not waiting to be scanned. Killing a few and not that "one" is virtually impossible? I understand that we should not kill every monster (or KenKen has to lock up a dead one), but its not possible to survive either when we don't.

or did i miss something? (there is lots to read and lots to discover :) )
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by Duniagdra » Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:54 am

Arpat wrote:i have a question about how to proceed...
as far as i understood KenKen only can lock up the bad evilish thingies after scanning...
How does KenKen scan the bad guy before we move in on the bad guy? obviously they are not waiting to be scanned. Killing a few and not that "one" is virtually impossible? I understand that we should not kill every monster (or KenKen has to lock up a dead one), but its not possible to survive either when we don't.

or did i miss something? (there is lots to read and lots to discover :) )
If we kill a "damaged one" it doesn't matter. Ken Den can trap the essence ot the departing soul, which is even easier than trapping the living being.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by cave_lion » Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:04 pm

As duni says--killing is not an issue for the creatures that are "damaged". If they could be killed they would not be in a prison...

Our power is out at home--estimate restoration at 1pm(a couple hours from now). I am going to wait till this evening to resume play. I will follow up with these questions Arpat and make sure everyone has a good understanding of how Kenken/Ken-den works.

I am still waiting in campaign B for some leadership from someone--at this point you have not actually done any recon to see what you are facing beyond the tunnel. I don't want to just throw you all into the room as you are--because your lighting would spoil any chance of surprise you might have had (and the intelligence of the characters would ensure they would not act like this.) I could write everything out as I think they would do it--but that would kinda remove the reason for role playing at all. So one of the characters needs to figure out a feasible way to do some recon and find out what is actually ahead of you so you can decide how you are going to move forward (in a way that makes sense other than just blinding walking into an obviously dangerous situation that you are aware of due to the goblins noises. For all you know there could be Lamashtu and her goblin consorts up there...)

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Re: Ken-den/Kenken

Post by cave_lion » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:19 pm

1. Will Kenken be gaining levels as we do, or will he be staying as he is?
2. When you say I run him, does this mean that I can (within reason) make him do whatever I want?
1) The two Celestial Living Constructs are mostly level-based. I used a striped down Monk to create a class for them--as the party goes up in level they will too; using this modified class. The main exception to this is that their Hit Points are fixed except for the Con bonus. So each level they will progress with saves/attacks/skills/feats/etc as a PC would.

2) Yes it does. Again with the caveat that they are intelligent/free willed beings. They have an agenda--as long as that agenda isn't circumvented they are essentially a second character for the two players who control them. I don't want to create a "see if he will do this" question every time you want to do something--so the best option I can see is to let the player control him as he does his regular character. As we all interact together I am sure there will be some comfortable patterns we will all begin to depend on. That's how real life and role play life works :) Some thoughts on this:

They are meant to be indestructible to the extent that can be done--otherwise the whole concept of what they are wouldn't work. They are the product of a hyper intelligent angel (who has a knack for invention, design and engineering) who had untold millennium to work on a specific problem (how to contain these damaged beings in a way that would not fail over time.) This means they have a unique position in a party doing what you are doing. They can scout ahead without fear of running into something they can't run away from--and chances are good they will be undetected when they do run away (did you notice the Stealth skill stat?). They can spring traps without fear of dieing (unless it is a REALLY dangerous trap.) So given these things--I am not giving you them naively thinking you won't realize that they have a huge potential to be a very useful member of the party. I am sure you will think of ways to play them that I never dreamed of--possibly to the point that I may have to adjust some things--but that is ok by me.

The same thoughts apply to the Lantern Archons too. They are a great asset to both parties--not just because they are a well full of knowledge about the dungeon--but because they are competent creatures in their own right with great skills and powers. One thing you may have not figured out about the Archons--you basically have a complete map of the dungeon through them--including all secret areas. This is basically going to be a great big treasure hunt--you know the area--just have to find the things hidden in it...

This campaign is all about character development and interacting with each other--that is, in my opinion, where this game(DND or Pathfinder or whatever) is so much better and so much more fun than most games out there.

Use them--it's like love--never gets used up, just keeps growing...

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Re: Ken-den/Kenken

Post by cave_lion » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:31 pm

One more item--regarding how they actually capture the damaged ones. I pasted part of the character sheet below. The three related traits are called "Null Prison" traits: Ken-den and Kenken have Blindsight and the Scent abilities to track the damaged ones--each damaged one has a mark that they can sense to be sure what they are. The spell like abilities (Banishment and Soul Bind) are used to capture the beasts. Banishment has a chance of zapping them right away--right into the prison (but with a save that is fairly easy to make). Soul Bind is much more powerful, but the creature basically has to be destroyed (soul released from material body) for it to work.

All of the "Bonded" traits relate to Marakast and Treye--they are the ways each are linked to Ken-den and Kenken (like a Familiar but enhanced).


"────┤ Racial Traits: CLC ├────
Low Light vision x2; Darkvision 60
Damage Resistance 15/-- (null field barrier will kick in if DR is not enough)
Regeneration (Ex) 5
Breath Weapon (Su) free action 2x/min exhale Mag Missiles (per spell)
Trip (Ex) (as per Universal Monster Rules--free action/no AoO)
Null Prison: Blindsight (Ex) (for the ""Damaged"")
Null Prison: Scent (Ex) (for the ""Damaged"")
Null Prison (Spell like abilities/at will): Banishment, Soul Bind
Null Defensive Field: Immune to All (magic, elements, mind affects, etc)
can be cured by Cure spells or Repair spells
Does not eat, sleep, or breathe, but able to use consumable spells & magic

────┤ Energy Resistance ├────
Acid: ∞, Cold: ∞, Electricity: ∞, Fire: ∞

────┤ Spell/Power Resistance: 100/100 ├────

────┤ Class Features: CLC Monk (P) 1st ├────
Bonded: Telepathic Link (to 1 mile)
Bonded: Clairvoyant Link (1 min/lev)
Bonded: Deliver Touch Spells
Bonded: Share Spells

────┤ Languages ├────
Celestial, Common

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Re: Surprise, Charge and Flat footed

Post by cave_lion » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:44 pm

To clarify the Pathfinder Rules:

Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
This means you can not move and attack during a surprise round.

"Charge" attack
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
Flat footed
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
Being flat footed has nothing to do with Surprise, per say, it just means that until you are able to act (with your initiative) you are incapable of using your dexterity and therefore your Dex bonus (or any related bonuses such as Dodge Feat) is not used to determine your AC. Likewise being flat footed does not imply anyone can use a sneak attack unless they have that ability (typically by being a Rogue.)

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by greg_BSCIS » Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:25 am

Heya guys.

I am back. I will probably post later today or tonight - 10/26.

I took 3rd in the heavy weight division - semi contact - Pfft, the pads barely did anything, I am still banged up and in my 3rd place fight, the guy went down after my leg kicks. Altogether, I fought for 6 minutes - (2) two minute rounds and (2) 1 minute extensions.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by Duniagdra » Mon Oct 26, 2009 8:45 am

greg_BSCIS wrote:Heya guys.

I am back. I will probably post later today or tonight - 10/26.

I took 3rd in the heavy weight division - semi contact - Pfft, the pads barely did anything, I am still banged up and in my 3rd place fight, the guy went down after my leg kicks. Altogether, I fought for 6 minutes - (2) two minute rounds and (2) 1 minute extensions.
Good job. Did you claim a trophy from each guy you beat, or are you not into the "Tyson thing". >:) No, really though. Good job.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by greg_BSCIS » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:41 pm

In a way I did, I kick the guy's leg until he couldn't stand on it any longer.

Does that count? ... lol

I think the 1st fight was a warm up fight for me. The last time I fought in a tournament was in 1991 and I didn't place so this is actually a step in the right direction for me and happy with the results. I mean we had a normal round and the (2) max one minute extension so the fight was good and we received an applause from everyone. Each of the guys came up to me after the fight. I should have done the same thing but last track of them.

I'll post the link after my Sensei posts it up.

He wants me to start training for full contact ... lol I fought full contact before (1991 tournament and in the early 90s with a Japanese business man), however I was in much better shape back then than now. By the next tournament, I could be ready. I hate pads anyway.
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Re: Surprise and Flat footed

Post by cave_lion » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:06 pm

cave_lion wrote:To clarify the Pathfinder Rules:

Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
This means you can not move and attack during a surprise round. Nor can you do something that requires a full round (such as a charge.)
Need to edit this after reading fully the "Charge" attack.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can't use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.

Attacking on a Charge: After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by scarymike23 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:51 pm

I'm not trying to call anyone out, but I'm starting to wonder if I messed up character creation. How is it that someone can have Mithril scale (+4000gp for medium armor) mail at 1st level? Did I miss out on starting gold being really high or something?

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by marine7312000 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:11 pm

It was allowed due to the character having an appropriate craft skill. This was an option allowed to everyone specifically in this post:
cave_lion wrote:I assume that start-up cash is the money you have to become an adventurer at 1st level. If you develop your character as having had a Craft or Profession prior to becoming an adventurer, I do not include the items from the Craft or Profession in your start-up costs. A good example of this--if you are a blacksmith--you would have made yourself a weapon while being a blacksmith. And it would likely have been a masterwork item (or depending on your circumstances possibly made of Cold Iron or Mithral.) Unless you were a bad blacksmith and that is why you became an adventurer. In which case you would need to buy your weapon (unless your dad is a good blacksmith, in which case, he will make you one...)
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by scarymike23 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:13 pm

marine7312000 wrote:It was allowed due to the character having an appropriate craft skill. This was an option allowed to everyone.
Thanks for the clarification. Wish I would have caught that. A free 4 grand would have been sweet.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by marine7312000 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:19 pm

If we ever find some ore I'll be sure to make Zanice some armor or a nice weapon. :thumb1:

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by Arpat » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:22 pm

Aye... i'll help with some nice singing... to make it a little better (no joke :-) hehe)
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by marine7312000 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:26 pm

On to a separate topic, would a character be considered to be wielding two weapons if he was carrying a melee weapon in his shield hand with a thrown weapon readied?

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by scarymike23 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:29 pm

marine7312000 wrote:On to a separate topic, would a character be considered to be wielding two weapons if he was carrying a melee weapon in his shield hand with a thrown weapon readied?
As long as you don't try to attack with both weapons in the same round, then no. Two weapon fighting requires that you attack with both weapons. If you are just "holding" your main weapon while you throw the other, that's just a normal ranged attack.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by greg_BSCIS » Tue Oct 27, 2009 2:31 pm

marine7312000 wrote:On to a separate topic, would a character be considered to be wielding two weapons if he was carrying a melee weapon in his shield hand with a thrown weapon readied?
I would say yes if either was used to make an attack. If the primary/off hand is holding the weapon until the weapon is thrown then I would say no.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by Duniagdra » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:05 pm

greg_BSCIS wrote:
marine7312000 wrote:On to a separate topic, would a character be considered to be wielding two weapons if he was carrying a melee weapon in his shield hand with a thrown weapon readied?
I would say yes if either was used to make an attack. If the primary/off hand is holding the weapon until the weapon is thrown then I would say no.
In my view, I would agree with greg. While you could attack with one weapon, while holding two, you should specify which hand the attacking weapon is in. If you have a thrown weapon in your primary hand and a melee weapon in your off, and throw the thrown weapon, you could use a move/free/swift action to swap hands, but unless you swap hands, you're attacking with your off hand and thus suffer the penalty.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by patransom » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:24 pm

scarymike23 wrote:
marine7312000 wrote:On to a separate topic, would a character be considered to be wielding two weapons if he was carrying a melee weapon in his shield hand with a thrown weapon readied?
As long as you don't try to attack with both weapons in the same round, then no. Two weapon fighting requires that you attack with both weapons. If you are just "holding" your main weapon while you throw the other, that's just a normal ranged attack.
I tend to agree with Mike. I think of my D&D characters as ambidextrous; they are heroes, after all. So I don't make a distinction between one hand being better than the other. The only time two weapon fighting penalties come into play (when I'm judging) are when the character actually makes an attack with both weapons. When he makes a single attack, even if it's with the weapon that would be normally be "off-hand" in his full routine, I don't apply any penalties.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by shai-hulud » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:43 pm

patransom wrote:
scarymike23 wrote:
marine7312000 wrote:On to a separate topic, would a character be considered to be wielding two weapons if he was carrying a melee weapon in his shield hand with a thrown weapon readied?
As long as you don't try to attack with both weapons in the same round, then no. Two weapon fighting requires that you attack with both weapons. If you are just "holding" your main weapon while you throw the other, that's just a normal ranged attack.
I tend to agree with Mike. I think of my D&D characters as ambidextrous; they are heroes, after all. So I don't make a distinction between one hand being better than the other. The only time two weapon fighting penalties come into play (when I'm judging) are when the character actually makes an attack with both weapons. When he makes a single attack, even if it's with the weapon that would be normally be "off-hand" in his full routine, I don't apply any penalties.
Pat and Mike are correct. 3.0 had the Ambidexterity feat. 3.5 explicitly removed that feat. This is because ambidexterity is now assumed. You don't need to specify a primary and an off-hand. Your first attack is primary, any additional attacks are off-hand.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by Duniagdra » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:48 pm

shai-hulud wrote:Pat and Mike are correct. 3.0 had the Ambidexterity feat. 3.5 explicitly removed that feat. This is because ambidexterity is now assumed. You don't need to specify a primary and an off-hand. Your first attack is primary, any additional attacks are off-hand.
Huh, well, okay.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by greg_BSCIS » Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:51 pm

But you still take penalties that is what I am getting at.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by shai-hulud » Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:16 pm

greg_BSCIS wrote:But you still take penalties that is what I am getting at.
You only take penalties if attacking with two weapons. If you do not expressly attack with two weapons in a round, you do not take penalties. There is no "off-hand" for a single attack.
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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by cave_lion » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:14 pm

scarymike23 wrote:
marine7312000 wrote:It was allowed due to the character having an appropriate craft skill. This was an option allowed to everyone.
Thanks for the clarification. Wish I would have caught that. A free 4 grand would have been sweet.
Doesn't have that big of an effect really--I limited it to Medium armor or lower--so basically it just allows people to carry a bit more without effecting encumbrance and gives a lower spell fail chance for spell casters. I look at using the profession/craft skills in this way as something that benefits the party as a whole so everybody wins with it. And as your party says--you will eventually benefit from their skills also...

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by scarymike23 » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:19 pm

cave_lion wrote:
scarymike23 wrote:
marine7312000 wrote:It was allowed due to the character having an appropriate craft skill. This was an option allowed to everyone.
Thanks for the clarification. Wish I would have caught that. A free 4 grand would have been sweet.
Doesn't have that big of an effect really--I limited it to Medium armor or lower--so basically it just allows people to carry a bit more without effecting encumbrance and gives a lower spell fail chance for spell casters. I look at using the profession/craft skills in this way as something that benefits the party as a whole so everybody wins with it. And as your party says--you will eventually benefit from their skills also...
I'm not upset about it. You still can't use medium armor unless you are proficient, so mithril isn't as powerful as it used to be*. The half weight and lower armor check penalty is pretty valuable. I question the balance, but you're the DM. I honestly don't have a problem with it.

This campaign will be enough of a grinder that we can take all the help we will get. Now if we could just get to the killing! :)

*="Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor." http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/equipment.html
-SM

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by cave_lion » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:28 pm

marine7312000 wrote:On to a separate topic, would a character be considered to be wielding two weapons if he was carrying a melee weapon in his shield hand with a thrown weapon readied?
So the short answer to this question is no. A character would NOT be wielding two weapons if he was carrying a melee weapon in his shield hand with a thrown weapon readied. The thrown weapon is an attack if thrown. Switching the weapon from the shield hand to the weapon hand is a free action. You can now attack with the melee weapon next round. If you attack with the melee weapon now then the answer changes to yes--since you are attacking with two weapons in one round.

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Re: OOC Comments/Questions/Rule Clarifications

Post by cave_lion » Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:41 pm

scarymike23 wrote:I'm not upset about it. You still can't use medium armor unless you are proficient, so mithril isn't as powerful as it used to be*. The half weight and lower armor check penalty is pretty valuable. I question the balance, but you're the DM. I honestly don't have a problem with it.
It is not necessarily balanced by the results--I realize that--except everyone was given the same opportunity at the start of the game--so there is the balance. I actually expected more creative takes on this rather than everybody just taking blacksmith--but that is the way it ended up so that is what was most important to people I guess. I would have expected something more exotic like a Dwarf with a vest full of explosives or .... (no more ideas from me :D )
Balance as a concept is all relative--I hate how people bandy that word around like a bible. There are so many ways to create balance--and ultimately there is nothing balanced about the game really--it is high fantasy designed to be fun. The balance for me comes in trying to get everyone participating in ways that are enjoyable for each person. The equipment is just a little piece in the equation.

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