The challenges of PbP gaming

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The challenges of PbP gaming

Post by admin »

patransom wrote:
admin wrote:I noticed that PbP Players are not as good as a group as a table-top group (where ppl can readily discuss strategies on the fly and are better at adjusting their actions relative to the actions of others). Have you noticed this as well?
Absolutely true.
Then the next question should be: What can DMs do to 'compensate' for the obvious lack of communication due to the very nature of this type of adventuring, if anything?

Make the character stronger?
Point out more the stuff that would be much more obvious in a table-top game?
What do you (everyone) thinks can be done to to help compensate for the lack of direct interaction?

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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

Post by larenee »

Here are some things I do, as GM, to help with this.

1. Use a LOT of descriptive detail when you post. This gives you the ability to subtly leave more clues for the players to notice and take action on.

2. Passive perception. Treat all PCs as always taking 10 on Spot/Listen (Perception in PF). I do not provide the same level of detail that might be gained from a stated action of looking/listening, but I can use this to insert in the description (as in #1) a hint that further searching may be warranted.

3. Occassionally, use a 'choose your own adventure' approach. Outright state a few specific options, letting the PCs choose from among them to move the story along.

4. Establish a few SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) for the group. These are essentially default actions that the group takes in certain common situations. This could include a camp routine or a room search pattern.
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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

Post by Duniagdra »

larenee wrote:Here are some things I do, as GM, to help with this.

1. Use a LOT of descriptive detail when you post. This gives you the ability to subtly leave more clues for the players to notice and take action on.

2. Passive perception. Treat all PCs as always taking 10 on Spot/Listen (Perception in PF). I do not provide the same level of detail that might be gained from a stated action of looking/listening, but I can use this to insert in the description (as in #1) a hint that further searching may be warranted.

3. Occassionally, use a 'choose your own adventure' approach. Outright state a few specific options, letting the PCs choose from among them to move the story along.

4. Establish a few SOPs (Standard Operating Procedures) for the group. These are essentially default actions that the group takes in certain common situations. This could include a camp routine or a room search pattern.
Very good pinpoints. I know at times I tend to lack in #1. I have made use of #2 and #3 in moderation. I like the idea of #4 as I've had GM's apply this same/similar method during TT play. It does make perfect sense to implement in PbP.
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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

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Yep, these ideas are quite interesting!!
And they can be used to create a 'Basic Guide to DMing a PbP Game" !!

I also used #4 for my PbP - We got standard walking order and standard guard duty roster established :D

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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

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Here is an Idea I just though about, due to the fact that one of my Characters was waiting on someone to 'roll' their knowledge...

5. Automatically ROLL the Knowledge Checks for Players when the circumstance might require it: instead of waiting for players to post things like "Do I know anything about this and that?", you can save much time just by ROLLING for the player and giving the known details right away!

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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

Post by Duniagdra »

admin wrote:Here is an Idea I just though about, due to the fact that one of my Characters was waiting on someone to 'roll' their knowledge...

5. Automatically ROLL the Knowledge Checks for Players when the circumstance might require it: instead of waiting for players to post things like "Do I know anything about this and that?", you can save much time just by ROLLING for the player and giving the known details right away!

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If you're referring to rolling knowledge checks if a player wants to know if that player's character knows something, no, I disagree with that. If the player wants to know what his/her character knows on a particular thing, that player should know they should try rolling the dice. If not sure which skill best to roll from, yes, I would provide suggestions (even reminding the player that if they don't have that knowledge skill that a general INT roll can work too. If you're referring to making a roll for a player if another character wants to know something and this other character has the skill, yes I do agree.
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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

Post by shai-hulud »

Duniagdra wrote:
admin wrote:Here is an Idea I just though about, due to the fact that one of my Characters was waiting on someone to 'roll' their knowledge...

5. Automatically ROLL the Knowledge Checks for Players when the circumstance might require it: instead of waiting for players to post things like "Do I know anything about this and that?", you can save much time just by ROLLING for the player and giving the known details right away!

admin
If you're referring to rolling knowledge checks if a player wants to know if that player's character knows something, no, I disagree with that. If the player wants to know what his/her character knows on a particular thing, that player should know they should try rolling the dice. If not sure which skill best to roll from, yes, I would provide suggestions (even reminding the player that if they don't have that knowledge skill that a general INT roll can work too. If you're referring to making a roll for a player if another character wants to know something and this other character has the skill, yes I do agree.
I can see both sides. In a normal game, I would probably side with Duni, but in PbP, things only happen based on what is described. Character interaction can rapidly devolve and become extremely superficial. At a table, players can discuss strategy in real time, so ideas are preserved from one moment to the next. On the forum, a player has real life during the week of waiting for an update, and the thought that a knowledge check could garner additional information may fall by the wayside. This may occasionally hurting his, the other players', and even the DM's ability to progress through the plot. It seems like a small concession to grant the players free knowledge checks in order to streamline gameplay.
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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

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shai-hulud wrote:I can see both sides. In a normal game, I would probably side with Duni, but in PbP, things only happen based on what is described. Character interaction can rapidly devolve and become extremely superficial. At a table, players can discuss strategy in real time, so ideas are preserved from one moment to the next. On the forum, a player has real life during the week of waiting for an update, and the thought that a knowledge check could garner additional information may fall by the wayside. This may occasionally hurting his, the other players', and even the DM's ability to progress through the plot. It seems like a small concession to grant the players free knowledge checks in order to streamline gameplay.
EXACTLY what I am saying!
This thread is about ideas that would make a PbP 'smother' and easier to play.
If this means bending the rules a tad to account for the lack of real-time communication, then so be it!
Remember that the rules (Pathfinder or 3.5 or whatever) were not custom designed for PbP, but for table top gaming.

This is similar to the changes game companies have to apply create a computerized version of a table top game!

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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

Post by Duniagdra »

I'm not disagreeing with taking steps to make a pbp smoother, I'm all for it, but I feel that players should know when they should make rolls. I already do make certain rolls for my games, though not nearly as often as might be better, time on my end determines everything, as it does for everyone else. For a gm though, a post can mean much more time than it may for a player.

Doing anything to make a pbp move faster and smoother is great, but that must be a team effort that puts players and gm all on the same page. This is not a gm responsibility alone. The gm has his/her hands full as is just running the game.
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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

Post by shai-hulud »

Duniagdra wrote:I'm not disagreeing with taking steps to make a pbp smoother, I'm all for it, but I feel that players should know when they should make rolls. I already do make certain rolls for my games, though not nearly as often as might be better, time on my end determines everything, as it does for everyone else. For a gm though, a post can mean much more time than it may for a player.

Doing anything to make a pbp move faster and smoother is great, but that must be a team effort that puts players and gm all on the same page. This is not a gm responsibility alone. The gm has his/her hands full as is just running the game.
Duni makes a good point. But, I do agree that knowledge is a tricky subject for players, especially in a pbp setting. In order to facilitate additional action by the players, I found myself occasionally inventing character knowledge in order to promote additional character interaction. This actually reduced the pressure on me by giving the players something to discuss while I got the next post ready.
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Re: The challenges of PbP gaming

Post by admin »

I had another idea that may help improve survival rates of PbP - always to compensate the reduction in communications between players:

6. Let the DM 'suggest' to WHOM the magical gear should be assigned to when found: The players can ignore the suggestion as they see fit. The idea is that the DM has a good idea of what is coming, and might want a particular PC to 'hold' an item. Also, he should be better placed to evenly split out stuff (also knowing what is coming gives him an edge to do this!). Also, such a suggestion would (hopefully) significantly decrease the 'haggling time' spend deciding who gets what, resulting in a more efficient use of time (and resources!). Evidently, the DM does not need to assign everything, but might suggest assignments for specific items...

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