what would you do(3.5 character question)

[LinusMundane]

starting at 9th level, any WIZARDS source book.

Give me ideas. I am not looking for min-max powergame type stuff, though i am not opposed to it either.

I prefer melee or hybrid, no clerics. I want to do something non-core but i am not ultra familiar with everything out there.

[rickynumber24]

You should take a look at the Tome of Battle. (It says "Book of Nine Swords" in much bigger text than that name on the cover, however...)

There is something called "martial maneuvers" introduced in that which are sort of like spells but definitely aren't spells and have a strong flavor of martial arts. They're both powerful classes and, because of a thing they introduced in them to make it easier to multiclass into them, are pretty good for a short dip, too. One of my friends is DMing a campaign where he kind of wishes the rogue in his campaign hadn't taken his suggestion of doing a two-level dip into Swordsage at around L8 after all because it increased that character's power level significantly. (This character can now nearly teleport and nearly turn invisible, once per encounter, or more often if he does stuff to get his maneuvers back.) Despite stories like that, everyone I know seems to be very fond of the book for being balanced. It might have something to do with finally matching the warriors to the spellcasters in power level...

[LinusMundane]

I have tried to use ToB before but it doesnt seem to integrate into the sheet easily, at least for me.

[rickynumber24]

I have tried to use ToB before but it doesnt seem to integrate into the sheet easily, at least for me.

There is that... I suspect it is the most obnoxious book to integrate into the sheet, mostly because it introduces a new type of magic, effectively, and it's not in the SRD, so it can't just be waiting in the background for the relevant type of character.

[CGM3]

Here's a character I'm using who started out as a wilderness rogue (an Unearthed Arcana variant) intended to be a ranged combatant, but because he keeps winding up on the front line I took some swordsage levels (from the Tome of Battle). I've heavily customized it from the version of the class Phoenix512 posted here, including treating the maneuvers as psionic powers (and the class as a manifester with no power points).

As well as the character file, I'm including my versions of the three martial maneuver classes (crusader, swordsage and warblade) and the swordsage and warblade martial maneuvers in spell form (not difficult to modify as powers); the crusader maneivers are somewhere on the forum.

Postscript: for some reason, the forum isn't allowing me to attach the ZIP file (not giving the option). I'll PM it to you

[Duniagdra]

You should take a look at the Tome of Battle. (It says "Book of Nine Swords" in much bigger text than that name on the cover, however...)

There is something called "martial maneuvers" introduced in that which are sort of like spells but definitely aren't spells and have a strong flavor of martial arts. They're both powerful classes and, because of a thing they introduced in them to make it easier to multiclass into them, are pretty good for a short dip, too. One of my friends is DMing a campaign where he kind of wishes the rogue in his campaign hadn't taken his suggestion of doing a two-level dip into Swordsage at around L8 after all because it increased that character's power level significantly. (This character can now nearly teleport and nearly turn invisible, once per encounter, or more often if he does stuff to get his maneuvers back.) Despite stories like that, everyone I know seems to be very fond of the book for being balanced. It might have something to do with finally matching the warriors to the spellcasters in power level...

I have tried to use ToB before but it doesnt seem to integrate into the sheet easily, at least for me.

If you're not sure how to implement the maneuvers into TOS+ v3.002, then let me show you what I've done. See my warblade here. For some reason, I'm not able to upload into here. I used the spelldata worksheet because the maneuvers are easiest to utilize there. I've heard of others use the feats section, but depending on your class, you'll use up feat slots with maneuvers that end up poorly implemented/represented there. The spell planner and spelldata worksheets are the best to go.

starting at 9th level, any WIZARDS source book.

Give me ideas. I am not looking for min-max powergame type stuff, though i am not opposed to it either.

I prefer melee or hybrid, no clerics. I want to do something non-core but i am not ultra familiar with everything out there.

As far as LM's query, if you're looking for a class to multi or prestige into from a wizard, any of the classes in Comp Arcane would be good, though some rely heavily on Atribs other than INT, but the Prestige's would work nicely. Comp Mage has some variants that are interesting. What exactly are you looking for?

I have tried to use ToB before but it doesnt seem to integrate into the sheet easily, at least for me.

There is that... I suspect it is the most obnoxious book to integrate into the sheet, mostly because it introduces a new type of magic, effectively, and it's not in the SRD, so it can't just be waiting in the background for the relevant type of character.

Maneuvers are not magic at all. They mention magic in the tome, but being as there is no resistance to them, that creatures resisting magic can have, these are not magic attacks. They are martial attacks in every sense of the word. I found it very easy to integrate into the sheet.

[LinusMundane]

I just want some crazy ass class that is effective, nothing vanilla.

[Duniagdra]

For prestige classes, the Argent Savant and the Blood Magus and the Wild Mage are interesting from Comp Arcane. The Abjurant Champion (which I play), Master Specialist, and Ultimate Magus are interesting from Comp Mage. From Comp Warrior, there's the Blade Singer. Me, I like the Wizard with some levels in Fighter, or some such, followed by the Spellsword for the ASF reduction, topped off by the Abjurant Champion.

[patransom]

Another option for the Abjurant Champion path is the Armored Mage fighter variant option in Complete Mage, which gets rid of ASF without dipping into Spellsword.

If not a caster, I've always liked the rogue-swashbuckler combination with the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel.

[Duniagdra]

Another option for the Abjurant Champion path is the Armored Mage fighter variant option in Complete Mage, which gets rid of ASF without dipping into Spellsword.

If not a caster, I've always liked the rogue-swashbuckler combination with the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel.

I was looking at the armored mage. Those would make good builds by how they read.

[shai-hulud]

What setting is it? What style of melee do you like? There's mounted melee, charger builds, gish builds, pounce builds, etc. Depending on how you want to participate in battle will help me give you some interesting ideas for a character with not-the-norm class combos.

[LinusMundane]

I do enjoy archery, howerever an effective 2 weapon build would be very sweet. I dont want to have to worry about spells.

[shai-hulud]

For archery, warblade is actually really powerful. A lot of the maneuvers work on ranged attacks, as well as melee ones.

Other possibilities:
For a long ranged archer, you could consider the Cragtop Archer from Races of Stone (you would need to be a Goliath).
For an order of the bow initiate from Complete Warrior, I'd recommend: Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Rogue (Fighter variant) 2/Order of the Bow Initiate 4 -- For race, I'd go Raptoran, if it is allowed.
For nice damage, scout from Complete Adventurer is always a fun choice. Mix in some Ranger levels for some bonus archery abilities, add in Swift Tracker, and voila!
Soulbow is a good choice
I don't have the book, but Silver Marches (Forgotten Realms campaign setting) has a prestige class called Peerless Archer that is really good (has an ability similar to power attack for ranged attacks).

For two-weapon fighting builds, race plays a huge role in determining your potential. There are plenty of multi-armed races that can vastly change potential for such builds. Do you have access to Thri-Kreen (ECL 4, 4-armed psionic bug creature), Sahuagin mutant (ECL 5, water dependent 4-armed creature), Dolgrim (ECL 3, small 4-armed ugly creature from Eberron). Each of these races would work with Multiweapon fighting instead of Two-weapon fighting.

For these builds, they rely heavily upon sneak attack damage, so rogue, spellthief (complete adventurer), blackguard, assassin, scout, dervish (complete warrior) are all good choices.

I'm sure there are more. If any of these catches your interest, I can give you a more specific build for any of them.

[CGM3]

For archery, warblade is actually really powerful. A lot of the maneuvers work on ranged attacks, as well as melee ones.

Except that the warblade, as well as the crusader and swordsage, are only proficient with melee weapons (though that includes those that can be thrown).

[shai-hulud]

For archery, warblade is actually really powerful. A lot of the maneuvers work on ranged attacks, as well as melee ones.

Except that the warblade, as well as the crusader and swordsage, are only proficient with melee weapons (though that includes those that can be thrown).

Taking one level of Barbarian and Fighter nets some nice bonuses, and you only lose one for Initiator level.

[admin]

Except that the warblade, as well as the crusader and swordsage, are only proficient with melee weapons (though that includes those that can be thrown).

Oh??
Somebody should tell Duniagdra, cause he used his Bow profusely in one Arena match... (without adding penalties to it). I guess that was missed by whomever approved his Warblade...

admin

[Duniagdra]

There's no need to tell him anything. I just looked it over after reading CGM3's post. I'm no longer liking CGM3, but he's right. It says all Simple and Martial melee weapons (including thrown). Thanks SOOOO much for pointing that out bud.

I'll keep this in mind for future uses though.

[shai-hulud]

Except that the warblade, as well as the crusader and swordsage, are only proficient with melee weapons (though that includes those that can be thrown).

Oh??
Somebody should tell Duniagdra, cause he used his Bow profusely in one Arena match... (without adding penalties to it). I guess that was missed by whomever approved his Warblade...
admin

He added the bow with earnings from his arena matches. It was not approved by whomever approved his Warblade in the first place.

[CGM3]

There's no need to tell him anything. I just looked it over after reading CGM3's post. I'm no longer liking CGM3, but he's right. It says all Simple and Martial melee weapons (including thrown). Thanks SOOOO much for pointing that out bud.

I'll keep this in mind for future uses though.

If the GM didn't catch the error, you shouldn't be penalized. It could be explained retroactively as a bonus "inherited profiency", the way all elves are proficient with longbows. Maybe your character comes from a family of renowned archers, and learned the use of the bow as a child, but at some point became interested in melee combat and broke his poor father's heart by taking up the Sublime Way.

[admin]

If the GM didn't catch the error, you shouldn't be penalized. It could be explained retroactively as a bonus "inherited profiency", the way all elves are proficient with longbows. Maybe your character comes from a family of renowned archers, and learned the use of the bow as a child, but at some point became interested in melee combat and broke his poor father's heart by taking up the Sublime Way.

As Shai says, it's not the DM who missed it.

R

[Duniagdra]

Are we hijacking this thread from it's intention?

CGM3, I was just kidding btw. And, though your suggestion is a good one, for the arena, there is no back story to the gladiators.

As far as who missed this, it would fall on the guy who made that gladiator, not sure who that is, but I hear he's a pretty great guy, and the Judge overseeing the match. None the less, it's been pointed out and will be observed.

Lets get this back on topic.